The friend (a guy) posted a link to this article on his page. The article, for those of you not yet familiar with the story, explained that the New York Jets and the NFL are investigating possible harassment by team players and coaches against female reporter Ines Sainz (TV Azteca). Allegedly the players "hooted and hollered", catcalled and whistled at Sainz as she entered their locker room. They also allegedly purposely overthrew passes during practice so they would land near her.
I think it's worth noting that Sainz herself did not make the allegations of harassment. The incident was reported by the AWSM after Sainz tweeted that she was embarrassed. When asked if she considered the players' behavior to be harassment, Sainz said that was up to the NFL to make that judgment. She also said that the Jets owner, Woody Johnson, and assured her that an incident like this should not happen again, so she considers the matter settled. Just for the record, since a lot of people have been complaining about how she's "making a big deal out of it" when really, she's not. Truth be told, she should have made more of a big deal in my opinion and even if she doesn't care about what happened, it still should never have happened and should never happen again.
It's also worth noting that while many have suggested or implied that Sainz is a bimbo with no brains and only got her job by exploiting her sexuality, she actually has a law degree and a masters degree in tax law. She's also a nine-year veteran of sideline reporting. This doesn't matter, because her level of education or intelligence has nothing to do with whether she is entitled to a respectful work environment. I just felt like mentioning that because too many people assume that because she's pretty and has a nice body then she clearly must be an idiot who only got where she is today because of her tits and ass.
I was immediately pissed by the first comment on the post, by one of the guy's friends, and the back-and-forth that later occurred. (Note: I'm not going to use real names here, obviously, because I'm not an asshole and because I don't want to out myself as well, myself. So please excuse the simplistic - although highly accurate - labels I have given the participants of this "conversation".)
Jets Fan loljets
The New York Jets and the National Football League are investigating possible harassment by team players and coaches against a female reporter.
Slut-Shamer ya know, this shit pissed me off. Why bother putting women in that situation? And if you want to work with jocks, expect to have them hootin and hollerin' if you are dressed like a skank, if she was dressed like the picture.WOW. So many things wrong with that first comment. So many things. (The worst, possibly, is that it was written by a woman. Yes, a woman said these things. Unreal.) Let me list just what is so so wrong about this one short little comment.
- Why bother putting women in that situation?
- If you want to work with jocks
- expect to have them hootin and hollerin' if you are dressed like a skank
- if she was dressed like the picture
That doesn't look that skanky to me. It looks like she's wearing jeans and a tank top, which is pretty much what half of the women in the U.S. are probably wearing right now. Note that this is not the actual outfit she was wearing while she was allegedly harassed (according to Sainz she was dressed slightly more conservatively than in that photo) but even if it was IT WOULDN'T MATTER. I don't care if she was in a bikini - it still doesn't give them a right to harass her.
The original poster responded to her comment with something that was... well, not perfect, but a lot better than what she said. I don't expect a lot of guys to get what harassment is and why it isn't okay. I just don't. It'd be nice if they did (and I certainly make every effort to 'educate' them on the subject when possible) but realistically not every Jets fan I know is going to be especially well versed on the subject.
Jets Fan true, but they were on the clock. if some woman showed up to my office dressed like a harlot and i made a comment, id get firedObviously I disagree with his "true" because NOTHING that the Slut-Shamer commenter said was true. (I assume he meant that it was true that a. she was dressed like a skank and b. jocks are more likely to hoot-and-holler at a skank than most other guys). But he made a good point - sort of - about the fact that they were on the clock. In almost any other profession, that kind of behavior would not be allowed or condoned, so why should the Jets get a free pass?
On the other hand, I disagree with the implication that if they were not on the clock it would somehow be okay. Perhaps it would not be the immediate concern of the NFL and rather, but harassment is harassment whenever and whereever it occurs, not just if it's in the workplace.
Slut-Shamer yes, that is true too... certainly think the coach should be reprimanded as well... but if she was dressed like that, she should be reprimanded as well for not being very professional. Course, don't know that she was... but you get the picture.Ah, so now she admits that the team was wrong - and the coaches for participating/not stopping the behavior - but it's still Sainz's fault in her mind. Why should Sainz be reprimanded? Even if you make the point that her outfit was somehow inappropriate or unprofessional (I do NOT agree that it was), there is no rule that she has to dress a certain in order to report on the Jets. There is also no rule that suggests that if she dresses a certain way then she should expect to be harassed... so she certainly should not be reprimanded for being harassed. Talk about victim-blaming.
At that point I couldn't take it anymore and I had to comment:
Evil Slut WOW, so it's okay to harass a woman as long as she's dressed like a skank? She's wearings jeans and a tank top, it's not like she's in lingerie. This is the same kind of logic that blames rape victims for 'asking for it'. I also question whether all they were doing is 'hooting and hollering' - which by the way, wasn't a direct quote from the reporter, but from the New York Post, which isn't exactly known for journalistic integrity
Jets Fan it really depends what was said as harassment and catcalling are 2 entirely different things. if the players were on the clock, they should have been able to keep their peckers in the pants and their comments to themselves altogether, imo.
that said, this reporter does have a history of whoring it up on the sidelines. does that give the players an excuse to make comments? of course not...as an aside, if she wants to ever be taken seriously, she should think twice about wearing belly shirts and like hot pants to conduct interviews.Sigh. And so much wrong with that comment.
- it really depends what was said as harassment and catcalling are 2 entirely different things.
- if the players were on the clock, they should have been able to keep their peckers in the pants and their comments to themselves altogether, imo.
- that said, this reporter does have a history of whoring it up on the sidelines. does that give the players an excuse to make comments? of course not...
- as an aside, if she wants to ever be taken seriously, she should think twice about wearing belly shirts and like hot pants to conduct interviews.
Also, I googled Sainz and I didn't see too many photographs of her in belly shirts and hot pants... at least not at sporting events. Yes, there are a few scantily clad photos of her out there in the land of the Internets, but that is because she's not just a reporter. She's also a model (and a former Miss Spain). But still... WHO CARES?
Evil Slut I just object to to the claim that the outfit in the photo is 'skank'-like, or that your outfit somehow takes away your rights to not be treated like shit while you're doing your job. That doesn't mean I think hot pants are appropriate business attire; I just think harassment is still harassment and isn't okay, regardless of whether you 'deserved' it.
PS: Catcalling and harassment aren't different things. Catcalling is a form of harassment and as a woman who has walked down the streets of NYC in 'appropriate' clothing, it doesn't feel good.
Jets Fan fwiw, im pretty sure the photo attached to article is a stock image and wasnt taken when she was allegedly harassed. if you google image her, you'll see that the above outfit is actually 'conservative' by her standards.
i also dont interpret... a whistle as 'harassment.' although, im not a woman and have never been whistled at. period :-(
i agree with everything else you said, though. harassment is never ok in my book, and that goes double for a bunch of oafs who are actually run through classes on that kind of stuff. they should know better.And... wrong again. Whistling is harassment. And what the Jets were doing in Sainz's presence went far beyond whistling anyway.
He's correct in that the photograph attached to the article wasn't from the day she allegedly harassed. (I didn't think it was, I was simply responding to Slut-Shamer's comments that the outfit in the photo was skanky and if she was dressed like that she deserved to be harassed.) But he's flat out wrong on the fact that the outfit in the photograph is "conservative by her standards" and he's wrong in his implication that she was wearing something less conservative on the day that the harassment allegedly occurred. (Sainz herself has stated that she was dressed appropriately that day in jeans and a button-up blouse.) In fact, I haven't seen a single photo of her news reporting in anything more skimpy than jeans and a tank top or halter top. Very often I've seen her wearing a more conservative shirt than a tank top, so I don't know where all this skanky-this and whore-that bullshit is coming from.
And just to prove my point (even though it doesn't actually matter) here is an assortment of outfits worn by Sainz that are more "conservative" than the one from the Facebook link:
Slut-Shamer It isn't proper to harass someone. But do as [Jets Fan] did and google the girl. I'm not sure what she expects dressing in jeans like that. It simply isn't professional and doesn't really portray wanting to be taken seriously in my opinion. Which means beans.Yeah that would be great advice if I hadn't actually googled "the girl" (or, you know, woman, seeing as she's in her 30s and a marriage mother of three). But I did google her and I still don't have a problem with her outfits. AND EVEN IF I DID, it has nothing to do with whether or not she was harassed.
Evil Slut There's being taken seriously & then there's being harassed. Two totally separate issues. Her so-called lack of appropriate attire doesn't make it ok for the team to harass her. I don't even see how one thing is related to the other unless you're making the argument that women give up their rights the shorter their hemline gets.And then a new player got involved:
Bystander ex-Ms. Spain + big men with high levels of testosterone = boyhood pranks like throwing the ball too far in her direction (see: frisbee on beach). Professional..no. Harassment...no. Asking for it? Wah.Ah. It's just boyhood pranks. Okay, again, so much wrong here.
1. These aren't boys, these are grown men who like Jets Fan pointed out are specifically trained on how to handle interacting with other adults who happen to be female.
2. These aren't boyhood pranks, it's harassment. Giving it a cutesy name doesn't negate what it really is.
3. These so-called boyhood pranks were not limited to throwing the ball too far in her direction. Read any single article on the subject and you'll see that that was the least of what the Jets players were doing.
4. "Harassment... no". How about YES. Harassment? Yes. Unfortunately for him, he doesn't get to decide what is and isn't harassment. Just because you don't object to someone's behavior doesn't matter... it's the opinion of the woman being harassed and the opinion of the organization within which the harassment took place.
5. Not sure what "Asking for it? Wah" is supposed to mean. He should have written "Asking for it? No" because no one asks to be harassed, period.
Evil Slut I can't comment on the specific story if it was harassment, because I wasn`t there... but my point was & still is that a woman's outfit doesn't take away her rights. I don't expect you guys to get why 'boyish pranks' can sometimes feel like harassment. Today on my 10 min walk from my office to the train I got SIX unsolicited comments & that's when I'm dressed for work with no makeup on. When I'm dressed to go out I get 10 or more. Not fun & not my fault. But you are guys, you wouldn't get it. What I really hate to see is women slut-shaming other women, because they really should know better.
Dumb Asshole Google
Evil Slut Google what?
Dumb Asshole Ogle
Dumb Asshole get it?Idiots. All of them.
Speaking of idiots... the way the media has been handling this story isn't any better. Take a look at a sampling of titles about this incident (and try to avoid smashing your computer to the ground in anger):
- Ines Sainz Not a Victim, But New York Jets Players Not Innocent Either
- Did Ines Sainz's Tight Pants Invite Harassment From the Jets Players?
- Ines Sainz: 10 Reasons She Doesn't Deserve an Ounce of Sympathy (Don't even bother reading this one, every single one of his 10 reasons are total bullshit and it will only make you want to seek him out and punch him in the 'nads).
- Clinton Portis Comments On Ines Sainz; Were They Justified? (File this one under "stupid questions" because of course his comments weren't justified.)
- Ines Sainz's Pictures push Hot NY Jets Reporter's Celeb Status Up (Video) (what?)
- 'Sexes & Ohs' at Jets' game (Of course, this one is from The New York Post.)
- Jets In Trouble for Noticing Ines Sainz’s Skin-Tight Jeans Looked Hot
- Ines Sainz Jets Controversey Photos - Super Sexy Reporter Sex Harrassment? (Sexual harassment is soooo super sexy!)
- Ines Sainz could have avoided Jets treatment (How bout, the Jets could have avoided treated her like that!)
- Ines Sainz Dying of Embarrassment at Jets Practice? Please (The original title of this blog was "Association for Women in Sports Media Leaves Kitchen for Ines Sainz, Not for Jenn Sterger"! [Google cache])
- Baby got back: Meet Ines Sainz [SLIDESHOW]"
- Ines Sainz and the Jets: Hey Baby, Welcome to the Pros
- Mexican Sports Reporter, Ines Sainz rapes the Jets Locker room (This one wins the prize for worst title ever!)
And... just in case anyone still thinks that the way a woman dresses means she is "asking for it" (it being harassment or rape or sex or whatever):